world's most inclusive nation, the Swiss, have voted against minarets
the world remains shocked
they had to do it DURING the haj, didnt they
Karol:
oh I fell the whole motion is stupid
Karol:
but even more stupid is all the media that find this surprising
me:
i should ask some of my swiss friends about this
well, coverage of switzerland in the states is somewhere between nil and cough drops
Karol:
this is all over Poland now
me:
yup and canada too, but the gym plays cnn and not cbc for some reason i cannot comprehend
Karol:
what I'm wondering
is how weird must their construction law must be to even be able to ban something like that in a public vote
honestly, where there's a wacko, there's a way
me:
eventually this law will probably be found unconstitutional i'd imagine
the whole idea is to change the constitution
me:
oh for sure. honestly, one thing that's impressed on me lately is that the economy doesn't matter, the laws don't matter, nothing matters except group dynamics.
sometimes one of the two becomes group dynamics.
Karol:
Strasbourg /might/ interfere
but then Strasbourg's jurisdiction over Switzerland is not so strong as in EU proper
me:
no, strasbourg wont dare making switzerland retreat from the eu
Karol:
I believe your concept of what matters might be biased
Karol:
Switzerland's not in the EU
Karol:
it's in EEA and Schengen
group dynamics matter more
Karol:
group dynamics matter when media tell you they do
me:
i do not disagree with that statement
Karol:
except at some point you define your reality by the media
and then you have people saying our previous government was like a communist regime
Karol:
no it's true storu
me:
the media is one part of your reality
me:
an important part but not the entirety
me:
my point is, there is a way to break or subvert any system.
because any system requires the will of its constituent actors to put together.
where there is a desire to stop a system from functioning in a given way, that desire will manifest itself.
also, you can s/system/part of a system/ if you so please
me:
fine. organizational system
me:
free societies, free markets, liberty and justice and all that stuff, it all exists as long as the people in power want it to exist. in a republic, the people in power are theoretically put there by the electorate. where the electorate does not put an emphasis on any of these wonderful abstractions, cf. russia, those abstractions start to go away.
Karol:
well that's pretty obvious
still can't see where you're going with this though
me:
fine. so what i'm saying is, when apparently 61% of the electorate wants to ban a certain group of people from practicing in a certain way? sure, there are right now limits to what they can do to limit muslims and muslim practice. but i'd be willing to bet that those barriers are on their way out, as long as there's no group of people (internally) who wants to stop them.
Karol:
yeah well that's democracy
me:
not just in democracy.
even outside of democracy i would argue that societies tend to resemble the people who constitute them.
no system can exist without support
me:
there was a certain polish socialist character and there is now a polish democractic-republic character, and they likely are not so different, except that this one is probably a lot "nicer" than the old one.
Karol:
all forms of autocracies and dictatorships have at least some, if not overwhelming popular support
me:
i am not saying support. i am saying resemblance
Karol:
hm I'm not sure the polish argument stands
me:
well, look, canada was only under martial law in 1970, and i wasn't here for that part
Karol:
because socialism hasn't historically been something ours
it lasted for so long mainly due to external factors
me:
thats a good point actually. it was not a polish organizational system
Karol:
ie. military intervention from the USSR
although you are actually right about the current system not being necessarily that much different from the previous one
me:
well, new institutions tend to come from old ones.
Karol:
(you are now using arguments of the polish right-wing, BTW)
me:
then we shall both acknowledge that i am not part of the polish right wing, and you will allow me to use these arguments toward different goals than the polish right wing is likely to
Karol:
the socialism here was a direct result of Postdam and Yalta
and the marginalization of the influence of the polish gov't in exile in London etc.